#90: The Power of Storytelling with Laura Belgray, Founder of Talking Shrimp
Have you ever opened your inbox and saw a subject line that immediately made you open the email
Or saw an Instagram graphic copy that made you stop and read the caption?
That’s the magic of good copy.
My guest today, Laura Belgray is the Founder of Talking Shrimp, a company that helps people write better copy.
Laura shares:
The one basic thing everyone can do TODAY to write better
How she navigates her celebrity partnership
The power of storytelling in your business
Make sure to tune in to hear our conversation about tough titties.
Learn more about Laura here: https://powerfulprofessionals.com or on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/talkingshrimpnyc.
Check out my new free training on www.yournextmillion.me, where several of my seven figure clients and colleagues share what they're doing in the next year to scale their businesses to the multi-million dollar mark and beyond.
Listen to the Show:
Laura M. (00:48):
So many entrepreneurs, dream of living a life of massive impact by creating a mega successful company, but only a tiny percentage of businesses actually scale to that point. And when they do it is so often lacking the very joy and freedom that got them into entrepreneurship in the first place. So on this podcast, we speak authentically on what it actually takes to scale your business in a way that creates freedom and joy that works for you, your team, and the incredible impact that you are meant to make in the world as a visionary entrepreneur. My name is Laura Meyer and I'm your host. I'm a serial entrepreneur wife, mom, to three. And I love talking all things business, especially digging into what it actually takes to scale joyfully to the multi-million dollar mark and beyond let's get started.
(01:47):
Hi everybody, I'm here with Laura Belgray and we are talking all things copywriting, inbox heroing, getting books completed. Welcome, Laura. I'm so glad to have you here.
Laura B. (02:00):
Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here, Laura.
Laura M. (02:05):
Yeah, the Northeast Laura's with the really funny sense of humor, I feel like we have a lot in common and this is going to be a lot of fun. Um, I know when we first started connecting, you would say something and then I would say something and we just kind of kept going and playing off of our Northeast sort of sarcastic humor. And it worked out really nicely in Clubhouse. I hope everyone else liked it. We were having a great time.
Laura B. (02:25):
Yes. We met on clubhouse and it can get a little confusing because somebody will say like, you want to take this one Laura, and we'd both go, I guess. And I'm like, no, you go, it would be just a series of jinx, you know? Um, uh, what do you call it? Not time. Yeah. Simultaneous, in unison you go, there you go. You'll go ahead.
Laura M. (02:50):
No. And then at some point we were just like, is it about branding or copy? Like, what is your question after about 30 hours.
Laura B. (03:01):
Oh my gosh. Drawing out people's questions on clubhouse because they tell their whole life story as and then there's no question usually,
Laura M. (03:12):
Right. Which really does go to show that during this time of quarantine and us all kind of just hanging out in our houses, looking for connection clubhouse was a pretty useful tool in that way. And I know this is a lot of what you specialize in is helping people really
figure out how to write, copy that isn't boring. That creates a connection that makes people want to actually have a dialogue with you and get into two way interaction. Why so many people struggle with that?
Laura B. (03:46):
Well, when it comes to what we were just talking about, like Clubhouse, where they would just ramble until, you know, a 10 minute story as a preface to a question, or just not even with a question, I think it's because in that case, it's because they, first of all, haven't worked on what they haven't picked up yet on what of what they say resonates with people, what people respond to. And second, we are also desperate to be seen. And especially during this time, right, we all, we want to be seen. We want to be understood. We all know that we have a story. Like most, most of us know we have a story and we want some way to tell it, and we don't know where to put it. And Clubhouse just gave perfect platform to get there and be like, well, I was in the military 10 years ago and that's where I lost my sense of smell. And then, you know, a whole whatever, whatever the story was. So I mean, there are a couple of things at work there and some people would tell really great tight stories and, uh, and it was clear that they had honed those or they were naturally good at understanding what people want to hear. And what, what, what is compelling storytelling.
Laura M. (05:05):
Yeah. Is that something that always came natural to you? Or is it something that you feel like you've worked on over the years?
Laura B. (05:12):
I think, I think storytelling always came naturally to me and writing the way I talk always came naturally, except in say college in high school, when you weren't allowed to do that. And you didn't have, you didn't know that you could do that. You didn't have permission to do it, but that was, that's always been, I'd say a gift of mine that is totally learnable for other people. But yes, I, I was going to say storytelling has always come fairly naturally to me, but I am understanding now as I write a book, which is a series of essays and stories that I have a lot more to say than people necessarily can digest. So I mean, so there, there are different levels of it and getting a feel for what moves the story along and what bogs it down is a whole other is a whole other level.
Laura M. (06:12):
Yes. I love that. You're sharing this. And when you said the title of your book, which is called tough titties, I knew this was just another thing that we had in common. Cause my four foot 10 or four, yeah, four foot, 10 inch grandmother used to double fist, her rosaries and yell at us, Italian grandmother, whenever we would do or say something about some kind of complaint right in her home, she would always have a rosary and she would be like tough titties and made me laugh so hard when you said that that was the name of your book. So how does the title tie in with essays? A series of essays.
Laura B. (06:53):
Okay. I'm going to get into that in a second, but I just want to point out the beauty of your storytelling that you just told, like in such a pithy way, just one sentence, my four foot, 10 grandmother, you said double fist, her rosaries and yell, tough titties at us. That's all such beautiful, rich concrete detail that we can picture. So I wanted to point it out. I want it to highlight that because that is a key element to good copy and good storytelling. Is those concrete details. Like if you asked us to draw a picture of that, or you asked a movie director to direct the scene to put together the scene, storyboard it, they would know exactly what to do because of those concrete details. So if you just said like, you know, my grandmother who was a tough little woman and very real and really religious used to yell tough at us, it wouldn't have been as good. This made it just perfect. So anyway, back to the title.
Laura M. (07:56):
So interesting you say that, cause I'm somebody, I have a story that I'm good verbally, but then I'm a poor copywriter. That is the story that I have in my head. And I love telling stories. I love entertaining. Probably a lot of people listening might relate to this where you feel like you're really good talking with people and you can play off their energy and make jokes that make them laugh and engage them in a way that's interesting and compelling. And then you sit down to write and it's like, you know, that an error has been let out of the balloon, you know, and maybe this is something that a lot of people who are listening struggle with, and it seems like you were really passionate about making sure that the way that people talk in the language that they use translates to their written voice as well.
Laura B. (08:41):
Yeah and I think that, you know, I, I, that what you said is a story of yours is definitely a story, but I understand that it doesn't come naturally when you sit down to write it. But first of all, because you have that story and I think you separate, like this was a story I told that loud and now I'm writing copy and it must convert. And you try to think of, you know, you think of all the rules of copywriting that converts and, selling. And meanwhile, the secret, I think the secret to great copywriting is telling stories that resonate with people and make them relate to you. And sometimes those don't, you know, those don't all cram into like a sales page, but the runway to that sales page, your emails, all the all the content that you're putting out around it that leads up to it can have those stories in it.
(09:33):
And you don't have to think of it. You know, if thinking of it as copywriting stops you up and gets you stuck, then don't think of it that way. Think of it as storytelling, um, in a way that people respond to that gets them to connect with you and it gets them interested. So, so that's all to say that tough, like, how does it relate? I came up with it. I was trying to find a way to express the kind of New York vintage, like 1970s, eighties, 12 old mentality vibe that a lot of my stories evoke and originally it was just going to be a book about growing up in New York. It's no longer that it's way more of a, I mean, it is still a
coming of age story, but it also brings in adulthood and career and, you know, getting paid to be you, it's not instructional, but there are lessons about that throughout.
(10:29):
And so anyway, tough went along with that first idea, but it is also, you know, it's just the thing that you say when you're 12 and roller skating and wearing a terrycloth jumpsuit on the streets of New York. But it also relates to and conveys the idea of saying, I'll just say, you know, the phrase, tough titties to all the expectations that are put on us, the way we're supposed to be the way we're supposed to do things, because I've never been a supposed to person and never done things the way I'm supposed to. And I don't have the kind of timeline that you're supposed to mull late bloomer. I did everything late and kind of on my own terms, in my own slow, slightly rebellious way. Not, not tough girl, rebellious, not bad girl rebellious, like dancing on a bar in a leather jacket, but flouting the rules rebellious.
Laura M. (11:30):
Yeah. I was thinking when you were saying 12 old’s on roller skates and I was thinking, or, you know, an Italian grandmother in Buffalo, you know, it's similar, similar problems, similar psychology. So when we're, you're thinking about these stories, I mean, what made you decide to go in that direction versus teaching people how to write copy, which is really what your known for.
Laura B. (11:49):
Yes, it is what I'm known for. And it would be the most sound business choice to write a book that went along with what I'm known for. And that brought in clients that who would go to my website to sign it's an opt-in for, you know, five secrets to non-starchy copy, or my 33 most open subject lines. This book is probably not going to do that, but it is the kind of writing that I have been wanting to do that I love to do. I love putting stories into my copy and my emails and telling stories from my life. And so this is a book of those. This was the, I'm not going to be instructional. There are no calls to action in here. There are no sidebars with your next steps. There's no, you know, and ending, ending the chapter with exercise, you know, find a way. And there's no, there's no, you know, you're tough titties call to action. Here's how you can say tough titties . You know, so there's none, there's none of that. And I didn't want to write a business book. It would probably have been a lot easier had I done that, but I didn't want to.
Laura M. (13:03):
I'm so excited to read it. One of my favorite books growing up as A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. And it sounds like along that, along the way.
Laura B. (13:11):
Yes. Yes. Although that's way before my time, um, that you might not guess it, but that's from, I think the fifties, I think that story is from the fifties and my growing up is from a very different time in New York, but yes.
Laura M. (13:28):
Yeah. You and I also have something else really interesting in common. We're both the lesser known half of celebrity partnership. And I was thinking about that when we were coming on today, that that's, it's a very interesting role to have, like a lot of people probably weren't as familiar with you until they found you through copy cure, which is how I remember interacting with you for the first time. What was that like kind of getting thrown from behind the scenes of being a well-known copywriter for really popular brands, you go to your website, you any listener will see that, to now being sort of an influencer in the internet marketing space.
Laura B. (14:13):
Yeah. Well there are different layers there. One is the celebrity partnership and I mean, what a windfall to have the Marie Forleo machine really doing publicity for me. I mean, so many of my leads have come from there. So many of my peer subscribers on my list have come from their people, get to know me through the copy, cure all the time. And, that is like winning the lottery as for the like being known part of it. So my vanity, the vain side of me struggles with it because I want it to be known for me. And a lot of people would call me would say that I was, you know, introduced me as Marie Forleo's copywriter. And first of all, that's a misconception. I was never her copywriter. I was her copywriting partner. And we would write every episode of her show, Marie TV together.
(15:13):
And so I was never behind the scenes writing her copy very much. Maybe sometimes like, you know, I'd spend a day doing tweets and stuff to promote the episode. But other than that, I was not Marie Forleo's copywriter, but being referred to as Marie's this or so-and-so's that, or anybody's anything while it was a huge benefit to me in terms of publicity, it gave me a huge boost and people took me seriously because of it. It also made me feel a little bit like I want to be known for me. I decided I wanted to be known as I don't know about cursing on your podcast. So I would just say, I want it to be known as Laura f-ing Belgray right. That was, that was what I came to. So I've pushed for a couple of years to do that, to try and be known in my own. Right. As well as through Marie. And of course, every time we do the copy cure, I get tons of recognition from that, but I also try to generate it on my own.
Laura M. (16:18):
Yeah, yeah. For me, it was similar and it's still evolving because it's a new program, but it's taking off quickly. And a lot of people know my business partner, Kelly Roach, but for me, it was this adjustment of being behind the scenes, happily in yoga pants, really just tending to my three kids and doing my thing in the background to all of a sudden realizing like the, the benefit of being able to have somebody like that trust in you so much and believe in you so much and want you to have the recognition that they have. And I'm sure he feels the same for you. Kelly always encouraging me, always trying to bring me on stage with her. And she's just been just so generous with me, just that adjustment of, of, okay, here we go. Now I'm on the forefront again and thinking that
through and, and deciding what direction you want to take. That type of benefit, I think has been awesome and also challenging because that happens so quickly.
Laura B. (17:18):
Sure. And there, I mean, it would be doing people a disservice. If you stayed behind the scenes, there are people who come to the business that you have together and maybe respond more, connect more with you than they do with her. And of course, vice versa. But I know for when it comes to me and Marie, there are tons of people who are like, oh, well, you're more, you know, Marie is one thing and you're another thing. And I'm like, I actually prefer learning from you because just that we have such different personalities. So it's two different flavors and it'd be a shame to keep one flavor hidden. Right. And for people not to discover the flavor, that is you.
Laura M. (18:03):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think a big shout out to both Marine Kelly wanting other people to be brought up to where they are. Right. Like, like seeing talent and wanting partnerships to take place and wanting the talented, um, people in their life to, you know, to be recognized for that work.
Laura B. (18:23):
Oh yeah. That's a mark of like incredible confidence and, yeah, so, and abundance and yeah, there's, there's, there's no limit, you know, it's not a zero sum game for them. It's not they're, they are not at all worried about sharing that spotlight, which is great.
Laura M. (18:41):
It is cool. Kelly's the same way. She's never even outside of our partnership. She, she thinks there's there's enough for everybody and has that mindset. And I think to have a partnership, you have to be thinking that way. When it, you know, as we're thinking through about copy, right. And so that's, again, what you're most known for is we've been chatted about it that much in this interview. So I want to leave our audience with just a few tips or things that you would say to somebody who is growing a company, thinking about scaling, trying to do it in a way that feels really authentic to them. How did they, how did they encompass, copywriting into a brand tone and voice that's really consistent? I'm curious on your thoughts on that?
Laura B. (19:28):
Well, I, what's great is that when you have a personal brand and it's yours, you have the luxury of getting to sound like you in everything that you do. And if you're a copywriter for somebody else, you don't get to do that necessarily. You probably don't get to do it. So I mean, my best advice, and, and I know that it sounds easier said than done to sound like yourself, but keep in mind the way you say things. And when something's coming out and it's like, this has no personality. It doesn't sound like me. It doesn't sound like a person. Um, I'm so much more fun in real life, but my sense of humor, isn't coming through my personality, isn't coming through. I suggest talking out the copy that you're putting down. And if it helps talk it out with a friend and see like, or if that doesn't
help and it makes you too nervous and you don't end up talking like yourself to that friend.
(20:24):
Cause you're like rehearsing. Just think, what would I say to a friend? Or you can write it to a friend, so you could even open, you know, what would I tell my best friend, if I were telling them about this service, um, you could open an email draft and start to write to them and say, you know, here's what I'm, here's what I'm offering. Tell me if this sounds good. You could write that out. Yes. I love that. And just say something that would be you and you, it sometimes helps to lead up to it and the way it just did, um, in a way that would be conversational and natural, you can cut that out later, but it might help you get in the flow of being yourself.
Laura M. (21:04):
I think that's one of the gifts that you bring to the industry as this is this sense of, I don't have to make it overly formal. I don't have to make it sound like the way that I was taught in high school, in English class or in college, it doesn't have to fit a formula. And that's something that I hear you advocating for. And it's something that, again, I think you're just incredibly gifted that when we, when you look at all the different messages we hear in the marketplace about the boxes we were supposed to fit into, and I love that you come at it from a different perspective.
Laura B. (21:34):
Thank you. Well, we are, you know, when I'm in English class, whether it's in college or high school or eighth grade often, we're taught, grammatical rules that make our writing look not conversational. It looks formal. So for instance, your teacher might have crossed out all your contractions, if you said don't, instead of do not. And they might've, you know, put a red, big red mark through it and written do not. And so you want to get back in the habit. That's one really easy way to make your writing more conversational is your right pinky finger. Uh, if you've touched type hits, you know, our old friend, Mr. Apostrophe, and that's going to make your writing, like go through it and see where you have written out the, the full two words instead of the contraction where normally you would say it as a contraction. I'm so glad you're here instead of hello. I am so glad that you are here.
Laura M. (22:29):
Yeah. So good. Remember we were on clubhouse one time and somebody said, write an email. Like your mom wrote it, or you're writing to your mom. I mean, we all read our emails from her mom messaged you. And I said, my only, only one with a junk mail filter of my mom. Like, I can never hire an EA because of the emails I get from my mom. But like, there's just no way. But I think like the point was, you know, very much like you want to make sure that you're in conversation as if it was a friend and that it feels personal and it feels, it just feels connected. As you had started out this conversation, which was so beautifully said that people just want to see, be seen, I think in this post pandemic, as I sometimes think of it as collective trauma that everybody has been
through, this idea of feeling heard and seen, I think is even more important as we move forward. So thank you for coming here and sharing your tips and wisdom. And if anybody wants to connect with you or get on your email list, because it is very good, I will say so myself, what's the best way for them to reach out.
Laura B. (23:40):
Yeah. Please come on over to talkingshrimp.com spelled exactly the way it sounds, no hyphens or anything, and believe it or not, I scored that URL talkingshrimp.com. And if you want to go right to the sign-up, you could go to talkingshrimp.com/signup, or you could go to talkingshrimp.com/ here's a good one subject lines, all one word. If you're interested in writing better emails for your business, that's gonna help you a ton. Cause it's my, what I mentioned before, 33 most open subject lines. And for that tanked and, templates formulas for you to write your own must open emails. That's gold. That is gold right there. Well, thank you Laura, for being here. I really appreciate it. And have a wonderful rest of your day, thank you, Laura. This was so much fun.
Laura M. (24:36):
Hey there: before you head out, I want to let you know about a free new training I have right on a brand new website called yournextmillion.me. It's yournextmillion.me, where several of my seven figure clients and colleagues share what they're doing in the next year to scale their businesses, to the multi-million dollar mark and beyond. And I have to tell you, it is not what you think. So check it out at yournextmillion.me. And if you loved this show, will you subscribe to it and share it with a friend or just say something nice about it to someone, you know? I’d really appreciate it so much. Thanks so much for being here and I'll see you next time.
The Scale with Joy podcast dives into the mindset and strategies of scaling your company to the million dollar mark and beyond. Each week, we follow the journeys of innovators, disruptors, experts and leaders - sharing behind the scenes stories of their most challenging moments and greatest lessons learned-all while building their multi-million dollar empires.