#125: How to Fire People Well
I was recently in a conversation with a former client about a situation that she found herself in recently.
She really needed some support so I jumped in and provided my perspective.
And at the end of our messages back and forth, she asked me to please make a podcast episode on this exact topic.
So I took her advice- I’m recording a podcast episode on how to fire people well.
And what I'm going to share with you is a result of 20 years of experience, with a lot of lessons learned on how to do this better each time.
I want to help do this in a clear, respectful way so as to not let the situation get out of hand to the degree to which both of you are surprised by the outcome.
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Laura 00:00
I was recently going back with a former client, now friend, on one of the situations that she's found herself in that's been brewing for a while. She really needed some support and advice around, always happy to help-jumped in and provided my perspective. And at the end of our messages back and forth, she said, will you do me a favor, and please make a podcast episode on this? What you just shared with me was so helpful. I know that if you shared it with other people, it would be one of those podcasts that people go back to again and again. And they give to their friends when they're in a similar situation. So I took her advice. And here I am recording a podcast on how to fire people well. And what I'm going to share with you is a result of 20 years of experiences mostly doing this terribly. And what I want to do is help you avoid some of the things that I had to navigate, some of my own head garbage around how to do this well how to be clear how to be kind, and how to not let a situation get out of hand to the degree to which both of you are surprised by the outcome. So up next how to fire people.
Laura 01:10
Welcome to the Next Level Leap Podcast. I'm your host, Laura Meyer top growth strategist to some of the country's fastest growing brands, and mentor to consultants. My signature leap methodology has changed the way 1000s of companies look at growth strategy, and this podcast shares best practices, and inspirational interviews to help you make that next level leap in your business. Stick around and join me as I share the journey of how we as founders can multiply our income impact and influence by landing on the other side of our next big leap. Let's go.
Laura 01:44
The truth is the way in which I would handle a situation today compared to 10 or 15 years ago as an entrepreneur are light years apart. And when it comes to firing people, I did this horribly, when I say horribly, embarrassingly bad for a very long time. And I would fire people abruptly and dance around issues. The reason is, because this is not natural for so many of us, giving people feedback, letting them know how to improve their performance, shining a light on things that they're either not seeing or probably don't want to see is a skill set that we don't really learn any other way. Many of us have been on the receiving end of extremely poor feedback. In fact, that's the majority of the situations that we've often encountered as employees. And if you're much like me, and you're very much a lifelong entrepreneur, had very little experience working for other people, this might not have been modeled well or at all, for you to be able to replicate in your own business.
Laura 03:02
I look back on a time where I let somebody go right when we came back from winter break, I had mustered up the courage that I needed to have this really challenging conversation. This
was well over 10 years ago. And it was a conversation I was having with an individual who would say things to me like I'm not doing that. That's a pain in the A S S in case you have kids listening. She would mouthed off to me and I would think to myself, How in the world did you not know this was coming? How in the world did you not think that this was okay. And as employers, many of us are hanging back or watching terrible behavior, I once had a manager who would literally throw things at the wall. And she was frustrated or was having a bad day. And when I went to her and let her know that she no longer had a job. She was shocked. So I think for many of us as employers, we think, like did you not just see what happened? But the truth is, a lot of times, they have no idea it's coming. And even worse, they think I work so hard for you.
Laura 04:13
I work so many hours, how could you say that? I'm not a valued team member? And for many of the situations that I've encountered, it was that yes, they were working really hard, but not on the right things. And what was getting done wasn't what I needed to get done. And the truth is, I wasn't clear with myself or them on that fact. And if this makes you feel any better about your current circumstance, here's some big mistakes that I've made. I wrote them down because as I was recalling them, it was laughing to myself as to how badly I handled these. The first is that I fired somebody the person who used to throw things at walls in a coffee shop because I was afraid of her and then she was sobbing I saw her as a bully. And I felt as though I could only talk to her in that setting. Because if she freaked out, we would have witnesses, which is the truth is, that was my stuff, not hers. There was a time in which I had a gentleman working for me who had a huge ego and was saying things to team members that were horrifyingly just inappropriate. And I let him go and said, you know, what, why don't you become a consultant, and then maybe I'll hire you if I need the help. And then when he came back as a consultant, I dodged him. And then the woman that I sat down her with after Christmas break that I was just telling you about. And I was shocked that she was shocked, because she would literally say to me, no, when I would ask her to do something, and then I found out that she didn't really think that that was much of a problem. So in all of these situations, here's where I was mistaken -firing somebody should never be a surprise, unless they're stealing from you or an engaging in criminal behavior. It should never be a surprise to the person. And if you're following along with my podcast up until now, you'll be fully aware that I recommend following my leap methodology when it comes to business growth, where we limit focus and we establish a plan, we develop assets and review progress. And if we follow the lead process prior to having any performance conversations, it really shouldn't be a surprise, because if it's performance related, they know what metric they're in charge of. They know what the plan was, they know what assets were supposed to get created, which were the main priorities for that quarter. And in reviewing progress, it's pretty straightforward. Do we do what we said we're going to do? Or did we miss the mark? And if we missed the mark, was it a result of us not following through with our commitments or creating a plan that we could stick
to? Or was it a matter of circumstances outside of our control, which we now tweak and test new hypothesis?
Laura 07:10
So many of you might be listening. And you might be much like me, prior to learning these hard lessons. And you might be saying to yourself, oh, my gosh, what do I do now? I have somebody who I'm frustrated with I'm struggling with, I'm having a hard time with. And I don't really know how to start the conversation because I've let things slip, or I've let them get away with not meeting commitments, or I have watched them break commitments, or I have watched them underperforming the areas of responsibility that are assigned to them. And you might be trying to figure out what it is that you do here. Well, the first thing that you want to do is start with the needs of the business and have that conversation, that conversation might go something like this, hey, team member, you're in charge of retention. And right now we have x percent attrition. And what we really need in order to grow the business and meet the goals established in our plan is y attrition. And so what I really need you to do is to figure out how to fix it, or fix it yourself. And if you can't find the right person to help you figure this out, I need to replace you in this role. And ultimately, what this does is it puts the responsibility on the team member to figure out the solution. If you've never read the book by Dan Sullivan called Who Not How this is the way in which I personally operate in my business, because your business is going to get to a certain point in which you need to figure out the WHO that can figure something out. And not the how. Because you as the entrepreneur going around trying to figure out all the how's of every aspect of your business ranging from finances, to marketing, to sales, to operations, to fulfillment to even your own brand position. It's a completely unrealistic expectation of you as the entrepreneur, to know the how of everything in your business. What you need to do is make sure that you have the right who and that who not only has expertise in the area in which you need them to perform, but that the processes in which they rely on to get their work done are well documented. So if they, as I like to say suddenly win the lottery, lose their cell phone in the ocean and move to a private island. You can replicate that how with somebody else, that is the first conversation that you need to have when you are considering letting somebody go to and it gives them the opportunity to either step up or step out.
Laura 10:12
I had this exact conversation earlier this year with somebody who was responsible for marketing in one of my companies. And I sat her down and I said, we are bringing this to you, I am bringing this to you, because your job is to generate this many leads, and we are generating about half as many as I need. And I can't justify you staying in this role at this current lead flow. And what she said to me in responses. So after 30 days, will you fire me if this doesn't improve? And I said, yes, I have to the business isn't sustainable with you being full time in this role, and the lead goals not being met? What happened is, within a few weeks, she quit. And we're still on really good terms. What's required to have this conversation is is
clarity. And that each individual has an area of responsibility that they are running. And if they don't know how to perform within that area of responsibility, they know that they need to fix that. And that is their highest priority.
Laura 11:18
A lot of entrepreneurs want to dance around this, they want to try to go around this process, they want to not give clear feedback or not have specific areas of responsibility for an individual or department. But I want to share with you is that if there is not strong awareness on what they're specifically responsible for, or tracking on a particular area of responsibility, no matter how talented that team member is, you will fall into the same pattern with the next team member. Because if you're not looking at those metrics, in areas of performance, even the most talented person will lose track and get distracted and forget what it was that they were supposed to be doing in the first place. What you want here is as little subjectivity as possible, when it comes to both areas of responsibility and behaviors. As I was going back and forth with this colleague, she had said to me, oh, my gosh, I now see one of the main mistakes that I've made, our performance reviews are all based on behavior. Are you culturally a fit? Are you a good person? Are you exhibiting strong values that are aligned with our organization, instead of key areas of responsibility and metrics? And when it comes to behaviors, that can even be a slippery slope? Because it can be very subjective, and can fall into the hands of judgment, right? And we don't want to do that or giving people feedback. So for example, let's say that one of the behaviors of your team members is to manage other people well. Well, looking at that from a place of specificity it might look at when you are training other people, are you empowering them with information that allows them to do their job effectively? Or are you taking tasks back putting them on your plate because your team member isn't doing them well enough? That's a very specific action that you could even measure. You know, I saw five times last week that you put something back on your plate, here are the examples that you were originally going to delegate to a team member, that is an area of improvement for you as a manager, and this is how I want you handling it moving forward. So that's a really clear example of behaviors that can still be very objective, and takes away from the subjectivity that can make people be surprised feel frustrated or discouraged in the feedback that you're providing.
Laura 14:03
So going back to my original piece of advice is to never surprise people. I mean, in theory, you could, but here's what's going to happen. Take it from my experience. If you surprise people and cut off all access and remove their logins that afternoon and cancel their credit cards like I've done, they will see themselves as a victim, and they will often retaliate. Above and beyond that they actually never got the feedback they needed to be successful in their next role. It might be that there was too much broken between the two of you that the trust is too far gone, that there has been too many promises made that couldn't be kept and you get to a certain
point in which your relationship now needs to turn into one of a former employee versus an employee. But giving them that feedback so that they can carry it forward. Is the right he'd thing to do it is the more uncomfortable harder conversations that we get to have as leaders. But it is the most honorable and human way to encourage somebody else, even if you're feeling frustrated with them, to set them up for success in the future, taking maybe some of the hard lessons learned that they had to go through while working with you.
Laura 15:29
So if you're starting from scratch with a team member, and you're trying to think about how do I make sure that I handle this right moving forward, I recommend just going through the steps on my leap method. So the first is limiting focus, do they have too much going on? Do they have too many priorities? Are they really clear on their areas of responsibility, and the two maximum, three metrics that they're responsible for every single quarter? If it's just one individual, I probably just say one metric, if it's department, three to five, five, max, depending on the size of the department. And then you establish a plan, what are we going to do as our main tasks or main initiatives, our main projects, in order to move us from where we are today to where we want to be in the future, that's establishing a plan. And then we develop assets. So our job is to get things done, right? Like our job, my job, your job, your employees job is not to just respond to our inboxes all day long and get back to Slack messages. Our job is to produce good quality work. So what are the assets that we're creating for ourselves in the organization? Whether it's an email asset, or a webinar or asset? Or we're talking about fulfillment? Maybe it's a programming asset, but what are those assets that we're developing for the company that we are responsible for? And that we have deadlines and milestones around? When it comes to getting it to the finish line? And then reviewing progress? When I'm reviewing progress? Am I clear on what fell short? Do I know why? If I, my defensive, am I blaming other people? Am I taking responsibility? Those are all characteristics that I look at when I'm thinking is this somebody who can hold on for the long term? Is this somebody who's focused and dedicated and committed to the work? Are they emotionally invested? Or are they have one foot in one foot out? Are they having other things going on that are a distraction? Are they you know, are they able to take responsibility for themselves are they able to see themselves from a standpoint of always growing, always developing, which is one of the keys I look for in any team member. It's not that they get it right. But they know where they fell short, and they know what they're going to do about it. And an awareness around that is how I really know if somebody is going to be around for the long term. So when it comes to managing team members, it is not easy. It is very much an art and a science. And one thing I can just really encourage you is to make sure that people are really incredibly clear on what it is they're expected to produce at any given time. It's extremely easy for somebody to get distracted, and for their priorities, to not be your priorities. So continually realigning, making sure that they know what number they are responsible for, and ensuring that you are there to coach them, help them support them, but you're not there to do the work for them, we'll make sure that you
both get the most out of your working relationship. At the end of the day, if you need to fire somebody and you do it well. And you want to do it in a way that's humane, and with grace and kindness and consideration. Having the conversation like I had shared previously where, listen, this is this is how your position is justified by the work that you do. This is the payroll investment that we're making. And this is the business outcome that we expect as a result of the payroll investment. And right now we're here and where we need to be is here. And it's behavior based make sure that you can make it as clear as possible, as trackable as possible as to what are the specific behaviors, what are the tasks that we're committed to but never got done? What are the behaviors that are keeping the organization from growing, that they need to change or shift in order to be able to stay with you as you leap to the next level in business? If you've loved this episode, will you please let a friend know if you know somebody who's struggling with their team member, send it their way and then send me a message I have so been there. And sometimes it can consume all of your thoughts and energy when you're struggling with somebody that you care about that you like that you are have developed a personal relationship with. And now you have to figure out how to give them the right kind of feedback to get you both back on the same page. I get it and I've been there. And I hope this podcast episode helps you if you know somebody else that it could help make sure to forward along and let them know to subscribe so they can learn more about how to create those next level leaps in their business with less stress, and more joy.
Laura 20:10
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